The Challenge in the Forum
During July and August 2004, I was prompted by the Spirit to join the Revelation TV Forum, where I posted a topic entitled Will God Save All or Send Some to Hell? The response I got was quite overwhelming, but the vast majority were strongly (some vehemently) against what I had to say on this subject. Many of them wouldn't even consider that God would save all, and it was evident from their replies that many were not carefully reading what I'd said either or taking the time to research it. I was accused of a number of things that were not true, some saying I was a Jehovah's Witness or a Christadelphian (neither of which is true by the way). I was basically accused of being a heretic and a deceiver, and figuratively speaking, I was condemned to death by a number of them. The majority acted like the Sanhedrin and they clearly believed that they or Christendom had a monopoly on God's Truth. This whole episode did two things for me: I was strengthened in Spirit, and yet I was greatly grieved by the attitudes of my Christian brothers and sisters; yet I rejoice that I was counted worthy to be rejected and persecuted for the sake of my Lord and Saviour.
Here below are a few of my key replies addressing a number of things, particularly the many statements that said that my beliefs were 'unbiblical' and 'un-Christian!' They also contain some personal testimony. I know that there are many who visit my site who have similar doubts about Universal Reconciliation, so I hope that what is written here will open your eyes to the truth of God's glorious Plan, and for those who already believe it, may this give you encouragement and assistance as you fight the good fight.
Gerry
First Excerpt
Hello Everybody,
OK..........I couldn't resist!
I need to answer this one thing that most of you are accusing me of in relation to what I believe as stated plainly in this forum ----- that it is UNBIBLICAL! This is totally untrue; a totally incorrect assumption. I will now give some clear evidence to back this up.
1) I believe that God is the Saviour of all mankind and that believers are the special portion
"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." (1 Timothy 4:9-11)
2) I believe that Christ's atonement covers the whole world
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)
3) I believe that there will be a Restoration of all things
"He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as He promised long ago through His holy prophets." (Acts 3:21)
"...at the renewal of all things when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne..." (Matthew 19:28)
4)I believe in Universal Reconciliation, meaning that all creatures in the heavens and all on the earth shall be reconciled to God through the cross
"And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first, for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:18-20)
5)I believe that all who are dying in Adam (that is, all humanity) shall also be resurrected to life in Christ (that is, all humanity), but each in his own order, not all at once
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified (made alive). Yet each in his own class..." (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)
6) I believe that Christ will abolish all Death and subject everyone to God so that God may be all in ALL
"The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects ALL under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that ALL is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him (God) Who subjects ALL to Him (Christ). Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL." (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)
"...at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phillippians 2:10-11)
7) This abolishing of Death will include the Lake of Fire, for the Lake of Fire IS THE SECOND DEATH.
"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second Death." (Revelation 20:14)
8} I believe that through the cross Christ will draw all mankind to Himself
" 'But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.' He said this to show the kind of death He was going to die." (John 12:32-33)
9) I believe that the whole of creation will be liberated from its bondage to corruption. This will occur through the sons of God, who are the firstfruits of a new humanity, a new creation
"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God...Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." (Romans 8:19-23)
There is much more that I could add here, but this is sufficient to show that what I believe is most definitely Biblical. It is written in God's Word. Now many of you may not be able to reconcile these texts with other texts that seem to contradict these simple words, and you may not understand how all of the pieces fit together, nevertheless - no one should say that what I believe is unbiblical for that is a lie. Just because you don't understand something that doesn't mean that it is untrue or doesn't exist. I believe, along with numerous others, that by correctly cutting the Word of truth (or rightly dividing it) and by using the sound words of Scripture, the seeming contradictions in this matter fade away.
Contrary to what some of you have said, I don't mind disagreement for it is inevitable...... but lies and false accusations designed to blacken what someone believes - now that's something else altogether. Only arrogance and an unteachable spirit will reject and condemn that which it is not willing to honestly search out, all the while thinking that it has all truth! And of course, everyone thinks that they are the wheat and not the tares! Let us bear the fruit of love and prove it!
Only when the above facts are acknowledged can there be any way of entering into a mature, reasonable debate on this subject.
God's Name and character are at stake here! God's Law makes it clear that no one is to be over-punished (Deut. 25:2-3). Over-punishment is just as unrighteous and unjust as having no punishment at all! And the 'eternal hell fire' doctrine teaches just that - extreme over-punishment that never ends!
What I believe, along with thousands of others, is in accordance with God's Law, namely, punishment (or more correctly chastisement) is limited. It will end and the sinner will be restored after justice has been done. Now you may not wish to accept or believe the above facts, and you may not understand them, nevertheless, no one can honestly deny them. THEY ARE BIBLICAL.
It is the same principle as presenting evidence that Jesus is the Messiah. Many may reject it or refuse to believe it or ignore it or misunderstand it - but the biblical evidence is there for all to see.
Grace and peace
Gerry
Another excerpt
Now concerning 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, you said the following:
Quote: "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified (made alive). Yet each in his own class..." 1 Corinthians 15:22-23
Well, before going on to what Jesus actually said about it, let me just fill in some of the blanks you conveniently left out to support your interpretation and give you this passage again in full, directly from the Greek:
For through man [is] death, and through a Man a resurrection of [the] dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in the own order: the Firstfruit Christ, aferwards those of Christ in the coming of Him.
You have ripped this scripture right out of its context in 1 Corinthians 15, which is unequivocally speaking about the resurrection of the dead in Christ. It closely parallels 1 Thessalonians 4 which overlaps the same theme. It is not by any stretch of the imagination making a universal reference to everyone who has ever died.
I will dispense with wasting unnecessary space here, but if you really wish, I will fight you over every verse of 1 Corinthians 15 which I strongly urge that you read in its entirety. The context could not be clearer.
Firstly, I do not wish to fight or quarrel with you.
As for the rest, I can assure you that I have not ripped this scripture out of context. Yes, Paul is talking to believers; and yes, he is speaking about the resurrection from the dead to counteract those who did not believe in the dead being raised at all. Then He clearly makes evident what Christ has done and what His resurrection really means.
All those in Adam die (or more accurately, are dying). This is universal. Adam was the head of the race and He passed on sin and death to ALL HUMANITY. Thus also, in the same way, in Christ, all will be made alive. BUT EACH IN HIS OWN ORDER.
The two Heads of the Race, Adam of the Old Creation, and Christ, the Second Adam, of the New Creation, are being compared here.
The first brought sin and death to all through a process of generation.
The Second will bring righteousness and life to all through spiritual regeneration.
This same truth is being revealed in Romans 5:12-21. The one man is compared to the many that follow. This is the principle of the Firstfruit and the Firstborn. The first one is consecrated for the rest.
Now in 1 Cor. 15:23-24, Paul gives us three stages or groups whereby this process of making all alive shall occur. The first is Christ Himself as the Firstfruit. This is then followed by those who are Christ's at His coming (or literally, in His presence). Now notice here that believers, the Body of Christ, are the second group, who shall be raised at the First Resurrection when Christ returns (Rev.20:4-6). So the 'ALL to be made alive in Christ' of verse 22 goes beyond believers alone, because believers are the second group!
Both Christ and His Body are the FIRSTFRUITS AND FIRSTBORN ONES. They are the special sacred portion, like Israel of old was the Firstborn compared to the nations. But the grace of God now includes the nations as well. In the same way, ALL humanity, the rest of the harvest, shall come under the grace of God in the New Creation. This is covered in the third group, 'then the end or consummation shall arrive' in which Christ will hand over a perfected kingdom to His Father after subjecting ALL to God - including DEATH, that is, the Second Death as well.
In the same way as Israel refused to believe that God would bless the nations, so the Church refuses to believe that God will bless all mankind.
The above truth is laid out in type and shadow in the three main feasts of the Lord. The feast of Firstfruits was observed during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This was the firstfruits of the barley harvest. Jesus rose from the dead on this day in 33 AD.
Then 50 days later, the Feast of Weeks or Sevens, that is Pentecost, was observed. This also was a feast of firstfruits, the first of the wheat harvest. This represents the second group of the Body of Christ being formed at Pentecost through the Holy Spirit. Both of these are firstfruits.
The third and final feast was in the 7th month, the Feast of Ingathering or Tabernacles. This was the celebration of the whole harvest. This typifies the Consummation, when all will be made alive.
The Jubilee was to be celebrated every 50 years in which all debts, both of Israelites and foreigners, would be cancelled. The Body of Christ are the Firstfruits that are set free first as a guarantee that the rest also shall be freed at the Great Jubilee of all the ages.
The foundational truth is that Christ has fully paid the price for sin and death, and His resurrection is proof of that. But this is only limited to believers during the ages, after which, ALL will be made alive. ALL die in Adam, so All will be made alive in Christ. Christ will reign until all is accomplished.
Regarding your quotes of Jesus and John, yes, there will be condemnation for many within the ages to come - but this will not be their final end. Only Paul was later given the whole counsel of God through visitations of the glorified Christ. He revealed a number of secrets that are not clearly explained anywhere else. (For further information, if you wish, see http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/the%20evangel%20doc.htm ).
We must bear in mind that the majority of the Scriptures were written to the nation of Israel. Even Jesus was originally sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Only Paul was commissioned to the nations, and he was chosen in grace to receive a number of revelations of Christ which completes the whole word of God. For the most part, Jesus' and the apostle's teaching has to do with the present age and the one to come (that is, the Millennium) in regard to this Old Creation. Only Paul gives us the details to understand the whole purpose of God in the New Creation in the age beyond.
Grace and peace
Gerry
Another Excerpt
Hello there. Yes I do still visit this forum occasionally. No, Mike, I am not a JW or a Christadelphian. I am a member of the spiritual Body of Christ Ecclesia, the Church of God. Some of you may doubt this, but thankfully you are not my judge.
I was brought up a Baptist. I was heavily influenced by the system of Dispensationalism (Hal Lindsey and others), and I was very zealous for the 'orthodox' teachings of Christendom, such as Eternal Hell. This doctrine in particular led me to a state of depression and great burdening of spirit. I believed it because I thought that was what the Bible taught, but it grieved my spirit constantly. Then a friend of mine showed me otherwise. Thankfully, after much study and prayer, and spiritual enlightenment, I now understand the grand purpose of God to reconcile all to Himself through Christ.
I do proclaim the gospel of Christ, yet I also try to teach others the whole counsel of God, and wisdom for the mature, as Apostle Paul said. There isn't any mention of 'Hell' or Gehenna in the book of Acts, or Paul's writings, or Peter's writings. If the doctrine of Eternal Hellfire is so important and necessary to the preaching of the gospel, then why don't we find it clearly presented by the Apostles and the early Church? That's because this doctrine was not a part of the original gospel of grace.
Why is it that so many Christians are more concerned with what a person believes rather than being interested in the person? They are more concerned with doctrine and judging others, rather than bearing the fruit of love. This was one of the problems that Jesus and the Apostles faced with the Pharisees and the Sadducees. The apostles, especially Paul, as well as Jesus Himself, focused more on conduct and bearing spiritual fruit, rather than correct doctrine. Truth is a person - the Lord Jesus Christ.
Quote: This idea of still having the opportunity to repent after we die is one of the biggest lies of the enemy to come out of some of the cults and new age thinking.
One of the biggest and most cleverest lies is believing that Christendom or 'the Church' has all the truth!!! Apostasy came in in the First Century.....and it increased during the first 3-500 years - when Christendom became an empire under Constantine and various councils determined creeds and doctrines. Modern Evangelical Christianity does not have all the truth either! It still retains error brought in in the early centuries.
Yes, I do believe that repentance is needed now before the judgment, but nowhere does the Word of God in the original languages state that repentance can never occur in the future, on the New Earth. In fact, if there is to be a Restoration of all things, and God says that there will be, then there must be a future repentance for those in the Second Death. Only repentance and spiritual rebirth can result in age abiding life and restoration. Now is a time for us to repent and believe in Christ Jesus if we wish to receive that life and not be condemned to the Second Death with the world.
Also, we will all be judged in accordance with our acts (note 'our acts', not doctrines!) (Romans 2:6; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 20:13).
Grace and peace
Gerry
Another Excerpt
Hello Simon C,
Thank you for sharing something of your personal experiences so openly for all to read on this forum. Praise God for what He has done in your life! I tell you, Simon, you are much nearer the truth than others would have you believe.
It is a matter of Light and Darkness. It's about knowing God and His Son, a kingdom of Love and Righteousness. This is Eonian Life (or age-abiding life, or 'everlasting' life). Yes, we can experience this right now, but the process will only be complete when we recieve our spiritual, immortal bodies at the coming of Christ. But we are ALL in the Darkness in varying degrees until we are transported into the kingdom of God's Son, where we find forgiveness and deliverance (Colossians 1:13-14). Even then we have to mature into the sons of God by continually dying to the flesh, which is the sin within us, that is, our earthly bodies.
All believers were chosen in Christ before sin entered the world (Ephesians 1:4-5, 11). We are saved because we are chosen by grace through faith, and this faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast before Him (Ephesians 2:1-10; 2 Tim. 1:9-10). In the ages to come, we will be used as a display of God's kindness and grace to us in Christ Jesus until ALL are restored to God (Eph. 2:6-7; 3:20-21).
I know of what you speak - the darkness, the demons, etc. I was brought up in a Baptist church and committed my life to Christ at an early age. I knew something of the truth, and I knew God and Jesus were real. I also knew Satan was real too! During me late teens and early twenties I rebelled greatly against my Father God, spitting in His face! I deliberately sought the darkness - can you believe it? I partied a lot, being immersed in the heavy metal/biker scene. I had some very scary moments with demons who sought to take my life. Now I know why!!!
Yet the love and grace of the Father slowly brought me back, though I was severely disciplined in the process. You are right, Simon. I do know the love and grace of the Father and His Son. Yet I also know that, ultimately, my deliverance had nothing to do with me! It was the grace and power of God. If it had been really left up to me, then I would still be in darkness!! I do not believe that we truly have a 'free' will as it is commonly expressed. The expression 'Free will' usually means 'free to do as we want.' The Bible tells us otherwise - we are all lost in sin and death, and controlled by the flesh. No one seeks out God (Romans 3:9-12). We are but Clay in the hands of the potter (Rom. 9:11-21). I also do not believe that we literally have a first 'chance' of being saved, neither a second chance! It is not down to chance at all, but God's choice and Will!!
I also think that the subject of Heaven and Hell, as it is often taught, often detracts from the truth. Nowhere in Scripture does it clearly state that believers go to heaven, that is, some spiritual, ethereal place. Mankind was created for the earth. What we are promised is a spiritual body like Christ's resurrection body, whereby we will be able to enter the spiritual sphere ('heaven') as well as this earthly sphere, as we rule with Christ for the ages to come. The New Creation will replace this Old Creation eventually, yet there will still be a NEW EARTH. The New Creation will merge spiritual and physical into one. The New Jerusalem ultimately represents the Kingdom of God, the Body of Christ, the Bride and Wife of the Lamb, the heavenly Israel. Yet we will still be humans, but glorified, spiritual humans like Christ Himself.
The whole of creation is awaiting this unveiling of the sons of God (Rom. 8:16-25). Then we shall rule and reign with Christ over all creation, sharing in the promise of Christ's Inheritance. In the meantime, until then, we need to endure as Overcomers, showing that we are truly Christ's disciples. Then we will not be condemned with the world.
Grace and peace to you my friend
Gerry
PS You may be interested in taking a look at this Appendix: Fury, Punishment and Torments - A Correct Understanding at the following link http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/hell%20doc.htm#torments